Barizvi: I am the same way in many respects as you. I have no issues with people marrying outside of their race; I just think that the person should be of your own faith as inter-faith marriages mess up the kids but that's just my view. I myself have preferences as far as which races I am open to and which I am not when it comes to marriage but I will reiterate that I respect other people's decisions about how they choose to lead their own lives.

To each his/her own. No offense intended towards anyone.

Iscn32,
I have no problems dealing with any kind of person. When i bring my views up its for marriage purposes only. i think its great you want to open a store and deal with the south asian community. i dont see any need for you to hide in the back and have a desi person in front. i would most definetly go to you if u were an honest business women. In business its honesty that counts for a lot and having good quality products. If you are going to cheat any someone, which im sure you are not going to, then expect to be shunned not just by desis but by anyone.
I have friends of all races and religion. As long as a person is honest and kind.
When it comes to marriage my own personal opion changes, but if my friend is going to marry out of race or culture that is their choice, they will still be my friend no matter what.

anyways, im off , have fun

Labs, Thanks, food for thought.
Guess we all have to take people as individuals, judge them as we meet them. :)

I agree Iscn, some desis/ people in general can be suspicious of those who don't look indigenous, but why let a small number of dodgy people put you off from your business idea/ work you're doing already

the majority of people would actually be flattered by you wanting to wear/ work in the line of desi clothing.. if they're not.. maybe find a town with more openminded people?

Labs, One would hope that's all it would take.
From my personal experience's I have to wonder though.

wow thanks for your advice everyone, keep it coming..

Iscn32, i think 'I will have to hide in my own store, have a Desi out in front so I will get business. ' may not be necessary - why not wear the desi products, learn enough hindi/ urdu to make customers comfortable/ welcome and go for it - i would hope if you act confidently and be friendly - as you would in any other business, customers should respond - regardless of any race divide

Thanks Sophisty and Effie. :)

i hope you don't see your difference in background as a weakness, but as a strength--market the fact that you bring a different eye to traditional desi fashions

iscn--i hope that fear will not stop you from opening a store..i feel that it IS the blending of cultures and perspective that brings freshness to culture and to fashion...i imagine (and hope) that people will welcome your perspective and be excited to see your take on fashion

Boy this discussion has gotten much more interesting since I last posted last night! :)

Barizvi: Excellent points made about every ethnicity trying to stick to its own kind. The examples you gave of the Italian experience, etc. ring very true. Of course each variety will want to stick to its own kind and desis are no different in this respect. At the end of the long, fine day, if we are living anywhere outside of our ancestral lands, marrying outside of our race is inevitable; it's really just a part of the lifecycle of being established in the country of residency as a group/race/ethnicity/culture.

Iscn32: Interesting and very insightful remarks! During my first job out of college as a recruiter, I worked with a colleague who was black but she had light eyes, light skin, and long hair (and she was not mixed...both her parents were black as black can get!) She would tell stories of how difficult it was for her to integrate into the black culture since her own fellow black women were resentful of her looks. Go figure! So you said it right when you stated that bias isn't limited to racism but crosses every type of boundary.

Best of luck with your business! I think you should advertise it on Naseeb as well :) Don't worry about people not buying from you; insh'allah that will *not* be the case at all. Here in central NJ, we have some prominent black Muslim speakers who represent the faith very well in front of non-Muslims; they are much admired in these parts and we are proud to have them take the lead in representing Muslims to those outside the faith. I think if your community is similar, you need not worry at all about your business not doing well with Muslims due to the color of your skin. Don't hide. Represent! (A)

Ua120: Cool points! I especially like what you wrote about bridging the communication gap between families to try to get the point across without coming off as offensive or rebellious.

is she in London? there's a lifecoach in London I know that may be able to help....in terms of strategies.

"We know for a fact her parents will have a problem with the last bit; even though there is nothing wrong with the man, she knows this will cause a major rift (of the disowning type) in her family. "

She "thinks" that this is going to be the case. Assuming she hasn't told them yet so can't be 100% certain that the above will be the reaction that she'll get.

A friend told me once: whenever you want to make a pretty major decision, list all the choices you have. Doing this with a friend can help, cos they may see options that you don't. Then consider the consequences of each choice/action, including others reaction to this chioce/action. You seem to have identified one of them "(disowning type)". An effort to get to the root of the motivation of such reaction helps. Questions to ask family/parents if they do react like the above include:

what is it about African people that you don't like/or think is bad?
Next question will include asking for more information on the answer they give....what is it about ...... you don't like / or think is bad? Carry on with this process until you get to the root.

It might boil down to "if you marry this person you show that you don't love us" i'e. if you marry an african you don't want to marry a pakistani...you don't think pakistani's are good enough....aren't we pakistani?!" they may not say this exactly but something like this (if you manage to get that far that is). A fear of being alone/not being loved usually drives people to such reactions. Other fears about lack of trust of ther races being able to take care of their children the way people from their own culture would may also surface. Ultimately a fear of not being able to handle any of the above is what drives most people to act the way they do. That fear is her family's to deal with, but the way she helps them to handle that fear is key. The help she chooses to give them will depend on what surfaces from them during the discussion.

Emphasing that it wasn't his race that she fell in love with but his character ..... stripping away race, education, wealth, etc and getting down to the core of a person which is were common ground is found helps people to understand that people are really very similar deep down. Also emphasising who else she could be marrying but isn't....i.e. non-muslim, or choosing to remain single etc may help.

Like people have stated below....she needs to make sure in her mind and her heart if carrying on with this relationship to marriage is what she really wants. If it is and she values her family's involvement (which i get the impression she does-otherwise she wouldn't be so worried) find a strategy to tell/consult them in the most gentlest way. She also needs to be sure that she has coping strategies in place if worst comes to worst and her family does disown her. Consultation with her potential partner is key in this. Also again depending on how much she values her parents involvement/blessing of this decision she needs to decide how much effort she is going to make with her family and for how long.

Depending on her relationship with her parents...how emotionally independent she is from them, that strategy may include...telling them directly. Could she choose a neutral venue? not hers or theirs?

Phone may work, but could just make them more sure that our daughter doesn't love us (she doesn't even have the courtesy to visit)

If the initial discussion with her parents doesn't help them open up much then suggest talking to a third party/mediator....someone that the family respects...that has balanced views.

Some have made the initial step by writing a letter.

The couple really need to decide if this is really what they want (i.e. get married). His support will be invaluable if they do decide to carry this through. The potential risks/consequences need to be discussed openly between them and strategies be put in place so their relationship (couple's) isn't the one that is lost in the process.

Barizvi, I don't understand much of his language's but I try.
You love the person you do your best, that's all anyone can do in any relationship, and there are always going to be problems even if you are the same race and religion.

The slavery analogy is a bit of a stretch none of us are living who went thru that, maybe more recent racism like Jim Crow we can relate too.
I think this is the point you are trying to make how we can identify with each other thru a shared history or experience.

We have racism within our own races against each other.
Some don't like those who are darker or lighter bc they were put down bc of their skin color.

I get hate from other black women bc of the way I look, I am not dark and I have hair so I am hated in my own race for that reason alone, not that I am a mean, nasty person but bc of the way I look.

We all need to stop it.
If these two love each other realize how much hard work it's going to be and they still want to be together they should go for it.

My family is very mixed, you deal with it and move on, live life, does this really matter in the grand scheme of things??

Lets not even start with where we all came from, the continent I mean.
We should focus on how we are similar.
Like I wrote earlier we are different by only 1% of our DNA.
So this is how the world is?
We focus on 1% instead of the 99%??

We all have something special to bring to the relationship, to a family.

This is one a problem I think about quite often.
I have a business, I sell South Asian clothing, and Islamic items.
I do it thru word of mouth have a web site not completed yet, but I would LOVE to open a shop.
My fear is that Desi's won't buy from me bc I am not one of "them".

I will have to hide in my own store, have a Desi out in front so I will get business.
Am I off base with this thought?

Barizvi, honestly would you have a problem shopping in my store bc of my color or race?

Does it offend you when I wear your traditional style of clothing?

Please forgive my long post, but this subject is close to my heart.

if she likes him then she should go ahead, love is also an aspect that God puts between hearts.

like khan said, the indo pak culture is really rich and has historical background and desis want to preserve it. No one can disown its a very major step but all races want to preserve whats their own. The black community don't like to accept outsiders too much because they think that an 'outsider' cannot understand what they went through during the time of slavery. If you look the italian community, they dont like having non italians in the family, they are a very close knight group close to their culture, same goes for Greeks chinese japanese. Everyone wants to preserve what is theirs. in religion u see that catholics dont want to marry protestants, or jews dont liek to marry out of the jewish community. Its a matter of understanding. No matter how accepting you are of the culture, you don't fully understand what its about. being the same religion isnt the most important. Like i mentioned, culture is important aswell. What if your language is different then his? a major link to culture is language. If you don't have that then how are u going to understand each others family? you don't marry just the one person, you take on the whole family.

would say...first she has to decide..if she loves him to the point or not..
If no love.. jut likeness... then wait untill it gets intensified or get diluted..
Confusion itself is a sign of lack of true Love...
Love gives strength and conquerr doubts created by people against the relationship..
and if she finds herself in LOve.....
then she shouldnt think twice..........
Just do it Lah!..(as in Malay)

As for Pakistani families are concerned..they always resisit in start ..as we are proud of our culture and there is so much depth in this culture ..
but lateron everything gets to normal..blood can never disown blood..and if in some exceptional cases they do! then they r not worth having as a family..
BTW:: Emotional blackmailing exist in all cultures..not only in Pakistani culture..
but one has to make sure what her heart says about a decision being right for herself..

Iscn32: "As" is the key word in your question, in my view. I don't think that desi parents are ever "as" upset when their kids bring home a Caucasian person as when they bring home someone black. I have witnessed this ten times over in my community in which many, many desi girls and guys are happily married to Caucasians (who have converted to Islam) and the desi parents have no objections...not to say that they didn't object initially but after their kids being married off and bearing offspring, all bitterness or resentment has completely been wiped clean.

Effie: My parents are I guess similar to yours in reference to something like that. Re: me, at this point I don't really think they care whether the guy is Pakistani or not; they prefer a Pakistani guy but I know that they'd be equally alright with a guy of any other race as long as he treats me and them with respect and is loving.

Saba1980: "...just one point you NEED to emphasize to her is to tell her parents to their face. They deserve that much. Plus it's hard to hang up on someone who is sitting right in front of you."

Great point! Maturity is key when tackling these kinds of issues. Face-to-face meetings are way different (and far better since they are direct) than phone ones.

Barizvi: Fortunately I haven't seen that level of resentment among the Pakistanis in my community; most everyone is fairly okay with having their kids marry any kind of Muslim including a Caucasian as long as the person is Muslim. It's hard enough to meet a decent Pakistani potential spouse so if you meet someone non-Pakistani that rocks your boat, why not? At least that's how the parents rationalize it.

Khan31: Excellent points all around! Well said!

i think its an uaffair remark about pakistanis...i have a number of friends whose children married white and the parents were dead set against, although they didnt disown but they had a lot of stuff to say that isnt even repeatable...

i think my parents would be uncomfortable if i brought home anyone other than a desi guy--Black, white, arab, japanese, etc. --but if he was a decent person that was respectful towards my parents and kind to me (and of course muslim) they would come around

Sophisty good points also! :)

Labs, you didn't mention his family and how they feel.
Sometimes people think that black folks are jumping for joy if their kid (s) bring home a non black, well let me tell you this is not the case!

His family may be just as upset as her's will be.

My Grandmom who raised me was a nurse, she worked in a Philadelphia hospital, she once had a bad experience with a doctor who was Indian.
From that day on she hated Indian's, HATE is the correct word, harsh as it is.

She was none to happy when I brought home a Pakistani, she saw no difference.

I would like to know what you all think about this....
If this girl brought home a White man do you think her parents would be as upset?
Or is just the case of him being black?